http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#723308e1-9300-4692-a62b-9e0aca6d0881 I do not mind if people make stuff up, as Lonny has. In fact, it seems the way Chinese medicine is going. However, when they make it up and then say it is classically based, I have a problem. The entire justification based on VERY elementary uses of Sinology is disturbing. He has decided Ming means destiny and then demonstrates how he has not really had a good overview of that character in the classics. He uses one line from the Shen Nong Ben Cao without finding a comparative idea (or use of Ming) in any other text-he just finds texts with that character and makes his definition fit. For every example he gives, I could give him 10 lines where that idea does not fit. Even the line he does use from the Ben Cao is more likely a later addition to the text. In fact, the earliest copy of the Shen Nong Ben Cao does not have the line he refers to-it only appears in the Ming Dynasty version. It seems to me that he got this idea in his head and instead of taking credit for it, he tries to justify it with the classics. His justifications, when read with even elementary textual knowledge, do not hold up. And if you think everything written in the Nei Jing is metaphorical, you have never read it. Maybe you have read some of the poor translations, but you definitely cannot read Chinese. I get very tired of hearing people talk about the classics who cannot read them! Lonny cannot read classical Chinese, nor can most of the people commenting on the classics these days. I love how people make all of these statements without ever having read a single line of Chinese. Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:20:03 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#723308e1-9300-4692-a62b-9e0aca6d0881 M.Bayh 2009-08-03T14:20:03Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#46ed45a6-4310-4a62-85f2-a3955e57fe5f Ear acupuncture and all microsystems, hand, foot sysytems etc...can be explained with bagua imaging, its really nothing new, just was well mapped by Nogier, ear relates to kidney, kidney to jing, ear points work on a jing level...Modern tcm in China has lost a lot over the years, I've heard Taiwan is a good place to study tcm in China... Thu, 07 May 2009 07:39:55 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#46ed45a6-4310-4a62-85f2-a3955e57fe5f jason 2009-05-07T07:39:55Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#60c9c343-f34f-40fd-aaaa-20f9a7cc033d I don't have any personal experience with Lonny, I do have his Nourishing Destiny book and find some of the stuff interesting and some of it does correspond to the Chinese face reading I study with a woman who was directly trained from a Chinese woman. My 2 cents has to do with the way acupuncture is currently being used in China. I just returned from studying there and was absolutely shocked to find out that 90% of the practitioners did not take their patient's pulse or look at their patient's tongues. Because they are paid per herb, their herbal formulas consisted of 40-50 herbs. I took an herbal formula for 7 days and did not get any better. However one of my translators had just graduated from TCM school and she gave me a very inexpensive tincture and by the next day my 3 week cough was gone. I did learn a lot there, including 2 new techniques that are not taught here and one we can never use here which consists of needling directly into the belly button - but I also learned that acupuncture in China is not necessarily better than it is here. I am so glad to see where it originated but from what I saw it's been bastardized there just as much and seems much more based on money. A new acupuncturist, graduating from a university, will make $150 a month working full time. The more patient's they see, the more money they make. I saw some treatments that worked and some that didn't, just like here. I know this is off topic from Lonny - but it's on topic regarding the previous discussions about how we should stick as close to the original Chinese way of doing things - Nei Jing, etc. I find that intuition and intent plays the biggest role in my treatments. I am also learning some very powerful 8 extra treatments. I think the beauty of this medicine is allowing room for the growing and expanding. There are things that worked 5,000 years ago that won't work today because our illnesses are different, our constitutions are different, our environment is different... I also want to mention that auricular was founded in the 1970's and in my personal experience it works wonders. And they use it in China today too - modern acupuncture and new ideas will continue to flourish - and in my humble opinion, that's part of the beauty of this work. Mon, 04 May 2009 08:47:35 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#60c9c343-f34f-40fd-aaaa-20f9a7cc033d Amondala 2009-05-04T08:47:35Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#71b72a3e-e296-48ff-8323-012a0b798174 Well I dunno if you can blame Lonny's dogma for your former partner's strange behavior...When people start making up new things adding to an ancient science it might fuel their ego though...Sounds almost like a cult atmosphere you describe amongst Lonny's followers...I think the C.A.N. network is an even worse cult that brainwashes acupuncturists to disregard the whole ancient, blessed, holy, pure, system of medicine and do half-assed "wrist and ankle" treatments as a "service" to the community although it is more like a cash cow for the acupuncturists willing to sell their soul... Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:23:20 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#71b72a3e-e296-48ff-8323-012a0b798174 jason 2009-03-31T15:23:20Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#bb338ce9-bd95-4d7f-befe-94ac48fb2e6c My experience of Lonny Jarret is from the vantage point of my former partner's fascination with him, with Ken Wilbur, with anything theoretical. My ex was a student of 5E in the Worsley days. He would read to me, and discuss many of these ideas and his fascination with the theoretical. But over time the incongruency of his actions with the ideas he appeared to be aligned with became red flags to his personality disorder. He became fascinated with the idea of manipulating patient's energy at a deep level (they were all attractive younger women, some students, some patients). He would later go into spirals of self-reproach and increased theoretical escape, reading and cross referencing other people's words. My impression of Lonny's work was as you say, ego-based, and rather grandiose. The whole gang of Enlightenned head-trippers seemed that way (Sorry, Wilbur, Cohen, et al...I also appreciate some of your work). I have maintained a 37 year zen-yoga practice with teachers who manifest none of that super-star gloss, and their integrity has become a standard for me. My former partner seemed caught in a mix of envy and sycophancy about people like Lonny. His actions in the treatment room became more and more problematic in the last two years, eventually erupting in several patient seductions and other behaviors which have finally pointed to the personality disorder. I'll avoid labels, but the characteristics are: very shallow feeling function, no conscience; seductive, predatory and manipulative behaviors, secrecy and compartmentalization. His acupuncture practice afforded him a perfect playground without supervision. This may sound like an unwarranted slur against Lonny Jarret, but I recognize a similarity in what I would call a heartlessness about the subject. Where is the human in it all? I have seen how the abstraction was actually an indication of something harmful. I was moved to respond by my personal experience, not from deep study of Lonny Jarret's work. Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:53:18 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#bb338ce9-bd95-4d7f-befe-94ac48fb2e6c mary 2009-03-29T17:53:18Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#7f334587-f4c7-4030-82f7-94496d16f279 By the way I use 5e techniques every day in my practice... In fact I consider my self a Specalist in treating the mental/spiritual aspect with acupuncture I don't use Worsley protocols though, but there is some overlap... Most of the 5e techniques I use are from Van Nghi, Morant and Korean acupuncture I love Worsley 5e I think its great I just found some 5e techniques I think are stronger I have had many many treatments personally from several different Worsley practicioners so I know what is out there...I've had internal and externals dragons lots we use to fool around with that one 1st year in school... Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:11:45 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#7f334587-f4c7-4030-82f7-94496d16f279 jason 2009-03-27T22:11:45Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#f45a8afc-7311-4fc1-a173-bd7606257584 Chinese medicine is a science of its own, not based on Western science yin and yang, 5 phases, bagua are real things that quantify nature when understood at a high level there is no room for argument, there are different needling techniques and approaches that are correct, just different approaches, but there is only one reality we exist in and only one acupuncture physics, when I say that I don't mean based on Western physics I mean when you stick a needle there is a reaction, the reaction is complex but predictable using the aforementioned laws when fully understood. I suggest Van Nghi's and Morant's work for anyone who wants to understand Asian thought in Western language, no matter what style you practice reading Van Nghi's lingshu will make it stronger as lingshu is all about the relationship of human and heaven and earth, he just used very old Chinese copies of lingshu which are much more complete than any in China today so it makes sense, even most Chinese today have trouble understanding the ling shu... Acupuncture is very, very complex and if you only learn a microsystem like Worsley's 5e or modern tcm you are limiting yourself...The thing about Chinese medicine the spritual IS physical that is the whole point of quanitfying things like mental jing, qi, ying, tong qi, ying qi, sensory jing, anatomic jing...Yuo can treat the root or the branch, you can treat the mental with 5 phases techniques or the physical with 5 phases techniques, if someone has pain, it could be due to anger so you can treat that or the pain both are correct, one might be deeper has a car accident and broken bones you can strengthen the kidneys spiritual aspect that will consolidate the kidneys function of making bones...There are many approaches but only one medicine and one reality of things in this life... peace Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:01:28 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#f45a8afc-7311-4fc1-a173-bd7606257584 jason 2009-03-27T22:01:28Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#47e7c5c8-30e9-422e-a9d6-5d7145e15caa wowee. heated discussion. i don't really think it's a terrible insult to modify and create new systems--the western world has a very different culture...the modern world is a very different time. americans have very different psychological makeups, diet, and trends in their health issues. the way we learn tcm in the states is totally different from how they teach it in china, so i think a lot of the learning depends on us just learning what we can and seeing for ourselves what works in our context (culturally...and what jives with your belief system and ways of directing your intention). i'm just in my first year of acupuncture school...and there is a whole mess of styles and information--every single teacher will choose different points and different ways of manipulating them. it's a lot to sift through. i prefer not to shut out people's ideas because of perceived ego or what other people say...read and listen...and see what lights something up for you. if you're interested...see what really _works_ for you--get treated by a 5 element practitioner or try one of lonny jarrett's protocol's on yourself...or get a friend to treat you. anyways...from personal experience...all i can say is that the possession treatment from "clinical practice of chinese medicine" was a good one. very grounding. maybe try that one...it has inspired me to look into lonny jarrett's stuff more than i would have otherwise... Mon, 23 Mar 2009 05:36:01 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#47e7c5c8-30e9-422e-a9d6-5d7145e15caa catie 2009-03-23T05:36:01Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#3f519413-468a-4d47-b737-39f458acc578 > "Mao Tse-Tung's criminalization of acupuncture" Ha, that's a great phrase :) Mon, 23 Mar 2009 01:42:49 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#3f519413-468a-4d47-b737-39f458acc578 Justin 2009-03-23T01:42:49Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#15e0ce6d-27cb-49c8-bc99-926ad5506570 acupuncture is ancient. ANCIENT. how is it AT ALL possible for a modern NORTH AMERICAN man/woman to understand the true essence of it? if you want to get real, there is no way. our language is so different from chinese; how could we ever grasp metaphorical concepts put forth in ancient literature? YES THEY ARE METAPHORICAL. if you're reading the nei jing and taking it literally, good job; you've successfully accomplished approaching eastern philosophy with a westerner's mind. i don't know about you, and i've read enough eastern philosophical literature to know that it is not supposed to be taken literally. also, one thing about chinese languaging-- it's not a precise language like germanic languages. i think it's interesting that anyone practicing this medicine would think that this medicine is solely based on science. wow, that certainly dumbs this medicine down immensely. do you really think 5,000 years of written knowledge would only address a physical, scientific medicine? look to any ancient medicine (ayurveda, herbalism etc) and you'll see it ~never~ just addresses the physical. that's because they were smarter than us and knew that health had multiple layers other than the physical. staying true to the form is practicing ~holistic~ medicine....WHOLE person. body. mind. spirit. why do you think acupuncture is called holistic medicine? do you think it's a possibility that before TCM existed (aka Mao Tse-Tung's criminalization of acupuncture that wasn't protocol treatment for physical ailments) that this ancient medicine actually may have been something like the 5 element style? is there a possibility that JR was actually re-introducing an old style? speaking to the reputation of this medicine...5E works....thousands of people continue to get treated with this style. people put their money where their mouth is. as for "making up new stuff": in your education, do you recall learning about different "schools of thought"? if i'm not correct, there are a TON of different styles that have been "made up" along the way. we call that advancement. now, i think lonny's use of the concepts put forth by ken wilber and andrew cohen are a tool for him to utilize the concepts in chinese medicine in conjunction with. perhaps it has something to do with the modern man's inability to receive ancient chinese treatment because of the abundance of ego? i don't know. all i know is that he finds great success in his use of it. i will be the first to say that lonny does have ego! i've read a good bit off of nourishingdestiny and the ego is definitely there. it's a shame because i think ego can be very offensive to the learner and person coming for acupuncture. i'm noticing ego in this response to you, and i certainly noticed ego in your response to me ;] Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:32:58 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#15e0ce6d-27cb-49c8-bc99-926ad5506570 linaluv 2009-03-22T15:32:58Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#6aa9da6a-999a-4aa1-b895-41fb6c5afc06 I'm sorry Ken Wilber and Andrew Cohen are not true to Ancient Chinese healing arts...J.R. Worsley brought modern 5e acupuncture to the Western world he studied with masters in China and Japan and based his system on that...To make up new stuff and add new stuff to acupuncture is an insult to 5000+ years of Chinese culture, not to mention 5000 years of clinical trials, it actually takes a tremendous amount of ego too. I've read Lonny's books I think they are full of flakey made up bullshit...If we as acupuncturists don't stay true to the form results drop and so does the reputation of the medicine, we have people thinking they can needle points at random and their intention will take care of the rest or basing their treatments on the mis-translated names of points and what they think they mean. In reality all acupuncture is 5e acupuncture most people don't understand acupuncture at a high level and think there are seperate systems, there is only one physics of acupuncture and 5 elements is a complicated concept but when you really understand it there is NO room for argument it is as SOLID a science as 1+1 = 2 or Newton's law...Wood is the muscles/tendons, liver oprgan+function, hun- ie. anger or creativity, this is the xiang fu "the organ window"...Some people like to write a book that says "Oh a patient came to my office with a spleen smell and a yellow colored face so I treated earth and 40 treatments later the symptoms went away" C'mon that is not a good result, the books he writes are full of fluff because there are no hard protocols offered, it's like here is 5e diagnosis then guess maybe to a luo/source maybe, tonify the mother element maybe use the clock or needle a point on the cv that has a name that sounds like it might help... Wed, 18 Mar 2009 05:56:47 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#6aa9da6a-999a-4aa1-b895-41fb6c5afc06 jason 2009-03-18T05:56:47Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#b78034a5-5e90-4bf3-9a9a-933bb31cb86e lonny is incredible. you can join in on his online community for free, which is very informative. his is a five element practitioner and he bases alot of his work on spiral dynamics concepts (ken wilber) and andrew cohen. he is brilliant! www.nourishingdestiny.com his books are also incredible--they are based on body-mind-spirit acupuncture. Mon, 16 Mar 2009 04:26:41 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#b78034a5-5e90-4bf3-9a9a-933bb31cb86e linaluv 2009-03-16T04:26:41Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#e75dc033-f4fc-46e7-a7a5-dd058e60bf6a I agree with the made up stuff, if you want to learn 5e try to find as much stuff direct from Worsley as you can, even his direct students and wife seem to be adding some things to me but maybe I'm paranoid...Even heard of Van Nghi and Tran Viet Dzung> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:33:55 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#e75dc033-f4fc-46e7-a7a5-dd058e60bf6a jason 2009-02-27T07:33:55Z http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#c55fbff5-f3ba-482d-a8b0-7100836ce070 Has anyone seen or worked with Lonny Jarret? Or is anyone very familiar with his work? What do people think? I like the concept, but from scanning his work I'm not sure whether it is really based on the textual tradition (a lot of his ideas seem to be personally made up) or whether there is any clear clinical reasoning involved (case study's talk about archetypal points that one "could" use but don't seem to have a clear discussion of what has actually worked.) Any thoughts? Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:56:49 GMT http://acupuncture.tribe.net/thread/b9da65d6-5d59-4a5b-baf7-566823ab24d6#c55fbff5-f3ba-482d-a8b0-7100836ce070 Matt 2009-02-24T17:56:49Z